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 Triumph And Treachery

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Should army bonuses come into TnT?
Yes
60%
 60% [ 3 ]
No
40%
 40% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 5
 

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PostSubject: Triumph And Treachery   Wed May 14, 2014 11:48 am

Right, a brief overview.

Basically this is a random turn order format of the game. Each PHASE of your turn you pick an enemy, and that is who you target that phase - everyone else is neutral. So you can only charge one players units (if in a position to charge two different armies, you'll have a tough choice to make) shoot one players units etc. You can declare different enemies throughout a turn (charging one, casting spells at another, shooting third and so on) There are treachery cards that can force your hand from time to time. The aim of the game is to earn money, by killing units. Whoever gets the final kill gets the payoff. It doesn't matter if one player killed 14 of those Chaos Knights, if another one kills the last guy, they get the points for the WHOLE unit.

There are also mercenaries in this game. Your mercenary budget is 100 points for every 500 points you bring to the table. You can use this to hire mercenaries. They must be from a DIFFERENT army book to your main army, however any normal rules against allying with certain races are ignored. Any mercenaries are formed into mercenary companies, and must have a mercenary captain to lead them. He acts like a "mini-general" for your mercenaries.

You can have several mercenary companies if you can afford them.

Any unspent mercenary points are added to your victory pool at the start of the game, to allow you to begin bribing other peoples units straight away.

Mercenary units can be bribed in a phase. Basically players can put down victory tokens to stop them being used. It is then up to the owning player to outbid the enemy to allow them to be used, or simply allow the bribe to happen and the unit counts as neutral that turn. Any tokens spent on bribery go into the mercenaries pockets - they do not go to the other player.

Finally, mercenaries are somewhat unreliable. If a fleeing mercenary unit rallies, it rolls a dice. On a 5+ it stays loyal... on a 1-4 everyone rolls off, and the winner is now the owner of that unit.

Finally, I have not made any prior ruling on whether we allow points from mines be used for mercenary games... I declared it didn't work for end of season games as those armies were assembled specifically for that mission, but in Triumph and Treachery it is a normal army making it's way there. So, before you guys decide where you are spending this weeks mine rolls, the question is put to the floor... Should any previous Spoils of War or Mine rolls be added to a TnT game? I can't see any problem with extra points - the mercenary budget is 100 points for every 500 rather than an exact 20% so it is less likely to be affected by extra points. If one army has 25% more than their opponent and one of say 3 opponents has 3000 points then it could be an issue... but that could be alleviated by everyone ganging up on the guy that's got the most points. So I'm all for letting the points go into it and adding extra carnage. It does risk the game running a little long, but we just have to ask the players to be down early and make a prompt start, and try to keep things moving at a good pace. But anyway, I'm putting it to a vote. Please can only people involved in the campaign vote to avoid spoiling the result. The poll will be open till Friday, that way you have the weekend to commit your forces and write your lists depending on how the vote pans out.

So, please, give me your feedback. And any other questions you may have, I shall do my best to answer promptly.
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Wed May 14, 2014 11:50 am

Oh, and if you can comment after you've voted (don't have to say which way you voted) so that if we have a tie on say 6 votes I know who to chase up for an answer...  Razz 
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Thu May 15, 2014 5:56 am

Voted!
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Richard F



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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Thu May 15, 2014 11:20 pm

Voted.

Question though, I was under the impression you could use any army book including the one your main force is from. Only restriction was you had to choose a leader and unit(s) from that book?
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Fri May 16, 2014 12:40 pm

Rich H mentioned this rule and he's right, I checked the book, it HAS to be a different army book from your main army... I guess the idea is they are of questionable loyalty and can potentially switch sides, which is much less likely if you're just using it as a way to get an extra rare choice into your standard army...
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PostSubject: poll   Sat May 17, 2014 4:43 am

Hi i have voted
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Sat May 17, 2014 7:08 am

I dont see this needing a vote. Tnt is time consuming and complicated enough without adding variable points to the armies and potentially giving players a huge advantage with extra points to both army and mercs or just sit on an extra big pile of gold at the start. I would suggest holding the points back for a 1v1 and keep the tnt which you probably wont finish anyway simples.
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Sat May 17, 2014 11:28 am

There are arguments for and against, hence why I put it to the vote. If someone has a massive points stack built up on one army, a TnT game could be a good way for two smaller players to ambush that players larger army and give it a kicking. Then the next time that army plays a 1vs1, it is on the back of a defeat rather than yet another victory...

Anyway, so far it's looking a yes, so I will ask everyone to please commit their spare points to their armies now. This WILL be allowed in the TnT game, as that is how the voting has gone thus far. If you wish to debate the point further and change the ruling for future TnT games, you are more than welcome to begin the debate, but as the game is coming up in a few days and people need time to plan and write their armies, I am going to allow it in this upcoming game.

At the end of the day, the extra points aren't all that different to a 1vs1... if anything, at least now instead of just having your 2000 vs his 2400 there is another 2000 point army who can help you... and inevitably backstab you admittedly, but you can take down those 400 points before the betrayals begin. And the points won't translate into mercenaries very much either. If we allow the extra points in SoM (which we do) where there is a direct 25% correlation, then how can we refuse the mercenaries, where 400 extra points gets you nothing... 500 extra points will get you an extra 100 of mercenaries, but 950 extra points will ALSO get you just 100 extra points of mercenaries. In that scenario, it isn't gonna be the 100 points of extra mercenaries that tips the balance, it'll be the 950 points of extra army that swings it.

As for the complicated game, it is up to the players involved to keep things running smoothly, though I shall try to keep an eye on it, and will if needs be act as the one that leans in and says "I don't care what turn you're on guys, the next one is the last one so earn all the points you can now" And the variable points limits to the army shouldn't be too much of an issue... you get the points for a unit AS you kill it. It's not like you have to work out what's dead at the end of a battle by looking at surviving models... you simply give them the credit as they kill it and then pack the models away, you don't need to worry about them any more.

Anyway, as I said, if people can allocate their points this weekend to the relevant armies, any extra points allocated will be in THAT armies NEXT battle, regardless of type. So please visit the forum or worst case text me so I can update the forum for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Sun May 18, 2014 5:29 am

Its a bit crap going for a yes vote when we have 8 campaign members and only 5 votes. You know neil doesnt use the forum and he had same opinion as me tuesday which would tie the vote. To be fair it should be done where we can all vote not here where people might not check or just dont use.
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Sun May 18, 2014 5:34 am

Hi sorry I have not voted but i agree with Rich only for this TnT not to use extra 400pts to our armies just because of time and players who may noy be used to this game type and taking possibly longer than they should. But in normal 3 player TnT matches yes to the extra 400pts also my not vote would make it 3 yes and 3 no.
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PostSubject: Re: Triumph And Treachery   Sun May 18, 2014 1:06 pm

I set the vote on here because we needed to make a decision, and quickly. Assuming you want to give the players time to plan their armies, we needed a decision before the weekend. Therefore I set a deadline of Friday. Everyone who is in the campaign HAS used the forum in the past. I also told everyone that I would be putting all relevant details, including rules for the upcoming TnT game, onto the forum, which I'd have thought would encourage campaign participants to log on and have a look at it. If all 8 players had been at the club on Monday when the game was set up, we could have made a swift decision then... but they weren't. There were only 5 players left by that point, so I decided to put it on the forum in the hope we would get more votes cast. In the end we haven't... though if you were sure Neil would vote for the side you wanted to win, you could easily have contacted him and said "dude, log on, need your opinion on something asap"

As for Neils "vote" if you read his comment he says he'd say no to THIS game (NOT the question we were voting on) but YES to regular TnT games... Now I am not going to set rules that vary depending on how many players are involved... either we have TnT be a separate thing or we don't. We aren't going to play it both ways. And in all seriousness the points bonus is magnified far more in Storm of Magic than in Triumph and Treachery... if you want me to rule out bonus points in TnT games then by the logic used I would have to rule them out in SoM games too. Have we already played some SoM games with bonus points? If so, a rule change to make bonus points illegal would give the loser of that game a fair argument that their loss should be invalidated... I don't really want to go digging back through old notes to try and figure out what effect that loss *might* have had...

Just to give this some perspective here...

Neil has 2300 points of Ogres. He could have 2400 points if he throws his undeclared points in. Either way, that will give him 400 points mercs
Rich F has 2000 points of Dwarves. He can have 2150 if he throws in his extra points. Either way, that will give him 400 points mercs.
Stephen has 2000 points of High Elves. That gives him 400 points of mercs
Scott has 2000 points of Dark Elves. His extra points could take him to 2200, 2300, or 2500 points. That will give him 400 points of mercs for the first three options, or 500 points of mercs if he goes all in.

Which, biggest case scenario, would be;
Neil 2800
Rich F 2550
Stephen 2400
Scott 3000

Compare that to SoM games, where I've seen the random roll of "your army is 25% larger than your opponents" give one player a 650 point advantage over their opponent. And that's without other people around that you can gang up with on them.

Yes, it could make a complicated game take longer. It will be tougher for those who don't play TnT that often. But both of these arguments apply to SoM just as much...

Anyway, NEXT time we have all 8 campaign players in a room we'll set aside 10 minutes to talk about this and debate the point (well, not next Tuesday, as your argument that TnT can take time has merit, so let's not make a self fulfilling prophecy by spending half their game time discussing how they should be playing their game) and we can make a rule for all FUTURE games, but due to the lack of time I am going to have to use the results of the vote to be the guideline for THIS upcoming game. I shall keep an eye on the game and try to usher it along when necessary and if worst comes to the worst I will call time on the game and people will have to add up their points as they stand and get a result from that.

Like I said, if people could pop over to the main thread for the Badlands campaign and declare where their extra points are going, so that people can start making plans and writing lists, please do so. Arguably it should be done in player order, which we would have done on Tuesday if everyone had been there and it hadn't been getting late. So that would be Stephen, Rich H, Neil, Scott, Ginge, Jason, Rob then Rich F. But right now I don't mind anyone jumping the gun and telling me where they wish to put their points.
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